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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">
<head>
<title>diary-2004 </title>
<link href=".code/preferred.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/>
</head>
<body>
<p class='header'>
<a href="_home.htm">Home</a> | <a href="_faq.htm">FAQ</a> | <a href="_thesis.htm">Thesis</a> | <a href="_diary.htm">Diary</a> | <a href="_projects.htm">Projects</a> | <a href="resume.htm">Resume</a> | <a href="_todo.htm">Todo</a> | <a href="_index.htm">Index</a> |<p>
<p class='main'><a class="ext" href="http://www.prudentbear.com/archive_...ntent_idx=39603">www.prudentbear.com/archive_...ntent_idx=39603</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.supportthetruth.com">www.supportthetruth.com</a><br/>
<br/>
Unfortunately you've misinterpreted most of my <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... you said that "Locked OPEN" seed DNA was a bad thing ...</span><br/>
<br/>
Either I misspoke or you misheard. "Locked CLOSED" is the strategy Microsoft, most seed companies, and <a href="land.htm">land</a> <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers have always <a href="use.htm">use</a>d to enforce <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity <small>(hoarding)</small>.<br/>
<br/>
"Locked OPEN" is a strange <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e of <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty enforced by the Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a> attribute of the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a>, and the <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e I will <a href="use.htm">use</a> to overcome hoarding in general.<br/>
<br/>
Hoarding begins losing its power when another <a href="own.htm">own</a>er <small>(whether of software, organism genetics, <a href="land.htm">land</a>, <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hinery, etc.)</small> chooses to "Lock Open" their solution - even when the '<a href="free.htm">Free</a>' solution is not as complete.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... you say <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y should not be a considered factor ...</span><br/>
<br/>
<a href="mone.htm">Mone</a>y is a terribly confusing subject for more than one reason.<br/>
<br/>
What I meant to communicate was: We have been taught that our goal is to "<a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e lots of <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y". But <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y is just paper. It doesn't solve anything by itself. That may sound ridiculous, or simply a matter of semantics, but it is the first step in understanding that the proletariat need _solutions_, not <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... open piece of <a href="land.htm">land</a> for people to grow ... But to still have to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y to <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> it from an authority who will not provide any feasible sort of support.</span><br/>
<br/>
<a href="mone.htm">Mone</a>y is needed initially to climb out of our <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent situation. If we can get a large enough piece - probably county sized, then we won't need to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> external <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty taxes.<br/>
<br/>
Beyond that we should eventually be able to stop using Federal Reserve <a href="note.htm">note</a>s.<br/>
<br/>
Using community <a href="own.htm">own</a>ed <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ency removes yet another drain.<br/>
<br/>
The <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> I mention has to do with the desire for the community to <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>d its infrastructure.<br/>
<br/>
Every community should <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e their <a href="own.htm">own</a> decisions about whether taxes should be optional. No outside force should set their stage.<br/>
<br/>
I think it would be best to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e the <a href="rent.htm">rent</a>/tax/lease-fee optional, but required for VIP access to community-<a href="own.htm">own</a>ed re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es. Non <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing member would be treated as all other non members - allowed access only after <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing a <small>(possibly above <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>)</small> <a href="rent.htm">rent</a>al fee.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... <a href="back.htm">back</a> into medieval times, having a Lordship who <a href="own.htm">own</a> the <a href="land.htm">land</a>, who policed their <a href="land.htm">land</a>s, and who collected forms of <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ment from their <a href="land.htm">land</a> <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers whose <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>es could be compared to slave labor ...</span><br/>
<br/>
You are describing the <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e of most of the world. How do we get such Low, Low <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>es at our retailers? How does GAP, Disney, etc. do this? <a href="econ.htm">Econ</a>omic slavery enforced via finite re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e hoarding.<br/>
<br/>
My plan is to relieve the burden of hoarding so solutions may be had at '<a href="cost.htm">cost</a>' instead of <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing for somebody else to '<a href="profit.htm">profit</a>'.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> You also say "solutions are the problem", but that solutions are needed ...</span><br/>
<br/>
I meant to say: "Locked Open solutions are a problem for those that utilize <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity". <br/>
<br/>
Microsoft, Monstanto - in fact most businesses <a href="use.htm">use</a> <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity.<br/>
<br/>
The scarcity is <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial because the <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t could otherwise be <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>ogated for <small>(nearly)</small> <a href="free.htm">free</a>.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... you wish not to contribute to ..</span><br/>
<br/>
The point I meant to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e is about human nature and dependence.<br/>
<br/>
Contributions are nice, but we must not depend on them. One of the powers of "Locked Open" re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es is the ability for others to <a href="pic.htm">pic</a>k up the ball. We can now literally <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>d on the <a href="work.htm">work</a> of others.<br/>
<br/>
Humans are mostly lazy and greedy.<br/>
When you depend on another for something you need, you put yourself at risk.<br/>
If they stop <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing or begin hoarding what will you do?<br/>
<br/>
While the final goal of Communityism is a community of wealth,<br/>
The first goal of Communityism is raising the lowest rung.<br/>
When every individual <small>(or family)</small> can meet their <a href="own.htm">own</a> organic needs, wealth is available to any who choose.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="curr.htm">Curr</a>ent interdependencies in the world block those solutions - even for those that struggle the <a href="hard.htm">hard</a>est - <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing 12 to 15 hrs per day at 12 cents per hour, some as young as 9. For many of the cases I've looked into the people spend over 90% of their income on food, 5% of their income on water. They don't <a href="own.htm">own</a> the <a href="land.htm">land</a> they <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>e on, so most of it is considered slum since they don't have the time or capital to improve it. And even if they did have time and capital, they don't <a href="own.htm">own</a> it. That means the <a href="own.htm">own</a>er would come wipe them off the <a href="land.htm">land</a> if they ever <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>t up a good situation for themselves - since then they could demand higher wages while the sat home eating papaya.<br/>
<br/>
A <a href="free.htm">free</a> person should be able to:<br/>
Sit in a lean-to and die of starvation. That is a choice.<br/>
Raise expensive organisms and <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>d a gleaming castle.<br/>
Have a small garden and just a small shack.<br/>
<br/>
Communism requires people to "hold up the tent pole" for the benefit of others.<br/>
The community can not survive if the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers are lazy and greedy.<br/>
They must be policed and forced to <a href="work.htm">work</a> or the system fails.<br/>
<br/>
Communityism _never_ requires <a href="work.htm">work</a> for the benefit of others.<br/>
Communityism is designed to allow anyone to succeed with their <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="work.htm">work</a> alone.<br/>
Communityism is just like capitalism with hoarding disabled.<br/>
<br/>
Communityism gives everyone an opportunity. Capitalism doesn't because of hoarding.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... it seems the ramblings of a mad man...</span><br/>
<br/>
It is a big subject. Nobody has the time or interest to <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly figure it out. Your e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> shows extreme misinterpretation of my intent. <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>.. Linux environment to a lower level than they believe Microsoft environments ...<br/>
I'm not sure what you mean "to lower level". It sounds like you are talking about personal fighting and pettyness. If that is the case, my only <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>ement is: That is not important. I care nothing of opinions, and neither do the poor. All they need is access to solutions at _<a href="cost.htm">cost</a>_.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... OS war <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly be about human nature in forcing others to want what you want or have? Typical to a monarchy, or more as in communism?</span><br/>
<br/>
It doesn't matter what people want. It only matters what people are disallowed. The poor suffer when solutions are made <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificially scarce. Locking solutions open creates wealth for the community while denying hoarders the <a href="use.htm">use</a> of <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ... individuals who are worthy of holding a corporate <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>ed IT professional's <a href="job.htm">job</a> are the only ones that matter in the war between MS and Linux.</span><br/>
<br/>
I'm not sure what you are saying here...<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="mone.htm">Mone</a>y is the element which causes these issues to be brought up.</span><br/>
<br/>
The term '<a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y' is easy to <a href="use.htm">use</a> because it is such a big bucket. You must break <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y down to find what people are <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly after - and what keeps them from it.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> And Microsoft could change their <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>ing plan to match that of Linux, if it becomes as big a contender as Microsoft became to Unix.</span><br/>
<br/>
Ha! Good luck! Is that what they will do? Stop charging licensing fees? I think I remember reading in some e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> something like 80% of our revenue from licensing? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure it's not small.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> They have made billions of dollars in surplus from selling their OS, having to merely sustain their OS would not destroy their company. And what happens when Microsoft releases their <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age of Linux? It is reasonable. And I wonder if they hadn't already been <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing on it.</span><br/>
<br/>
That is an extraordinary <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>osal. You should e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> MS CFO John Connors.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/18/ballmer_linux_lawsuits">www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/18/ballmer_linux_lawsuits</a> <a href="use.htm">Use</a> Linux and you will be sued, Ballmer tells governments<br/>
<br/>
Buffoons of the <a class="ext" href="http://Apocalypsewww.gnupc.com/">Apocalypsewww.gnupc.com/</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://lcdsmartie.sourceforge.net/smartied.htm">lcdsmartie.sourceforge.net/smartied.htm</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.washingtonvotes.org">www.washingtonvotes.org</a><br/>
chip or clip wood from trees<br/>
pond <br/>
What if suddenly you were in charge?<br/>
It was determined you should be king of the world.<br/>
<br/>
Would you have a plan to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e it all right?<br/>
Do you think it may take a bit more than might?<br/>
<br/>
Saw <a href="part.htm">part</a> of interview with Ray Kurzweil about book "Fantastic Voyage" and his belief that genetic manipulation and na<a href="note.htm">note</a>chnology will increase human longevity.<br/>
Unsugared <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y <a href="new.htm">new</a>s: <a class="ext" href="http://www.moneyfiles.org">www.moneyfiles.org</a><br/>
Fears of a brutal dollar plunge <a class="ext" href="http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?p=80510#post80510">goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?p=80510#post80510</a><br/>
Experts grim on <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy: Descriptions of long-term trap becoming increasingly accepted <a class="ext" href="http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=59118">business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=59118</a><br/>
<br/>
Ruthless empire <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>ders <a class="ext" href="http://atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FL15Dj01.html">atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FL15Dj01.html</a><br/>
A <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>tary coup d'etat <a class="ext" href="http://atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FL17Dj01.html">atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FL17Dj01.html</a><br/>
<br/>
US Dollar worthless now? <a class="ext" href="http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12-16g-04.asp">www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12-16g-04.asp</a><br/>
<br/>
The <a href="cost.htm">cost</a> of borrowing <a class="ext" href="http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3494519">www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3494519</a><br/>
<br/>
Dollar Drops as Inve<a href="stor.htm">stor</a>s Slow Purchases of Securities in U.S. <a class="ext" href="http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aYnaFYUUq4ls&refer=news_index">quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aYnaFYUUq4ls&refer=news_index</a><br/>
<br/>
India Has Much to Gain by Dumping Dollar Link: <a class="ext" href="http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&cid=mukherjee&sid=aaRl0WnGIYRQ">quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&cid=mukherjee&sid=aaRl0WnGIYRQ</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://walden3.org">walden3.org</a><br/>
Photocapacitor <a class="ext" href="http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/11/3/1">physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/11/3/1</a><br/>
Debt Limit to Rise to $8.18 Trillion <a class="ext" href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60963-2004Nov18.html">www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60963-2004Nov18.html</a><br/>
<a href="stock.htm">Stock</a>s Drop $10Bln in a Day <a class="ext" href="http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/12/10/001.html">www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/12/10/001.html</a><br/>
Japan Threatens Huge Dollar Sell-Off <a class="ext" href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120904_japan_threatens.shtml">www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120904_japan_threatens.shtml</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.terrorize.dk/911">www.terrorize.dk/911</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.gallerize.com">www.gallerize.com</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://bombsinsidewtc.dk">bombsinsidewtc.dk</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://independent.com/news/news906.htm">independent.com/news/news906.htm</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.questionsquestions.net">www.questionsquestions.net</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.peaceproject.com">www.peaceproject.com</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.microsoft.com/msdownload/platformsdk/sdkupdate/downlevel.htm">www.microsoft.com/msdownload/platformsdk/sdkupdate/downlevel.htm</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk">www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.dougknox.com/xp/tips/xp_messenger_remove.htm">www.dougknox.com/xp/tips/xp_messenger_remove.htm</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/wtc7collapse.ram">www.prisonplanet.com/wtc7collapse.ram</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/wtc-7_cbs.mpeg">www.prisonplanet.com/wtc-7_cbs.mpeg</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.infowars.com/Video/911/WTC7COLLAPSE2.WMV">www.infowars.com/Video/911/WTC7COLLAPSE2.WMV</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/noexplosivesplaceddemolition.mpeg">www.prisonplanet.com/noexplosivesplaceddemolition.mpeg</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/strategicdemolition.ram">www.prisonplanet.com/strategicdemolition.ram</a><br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.stopthelie.com">www.stopthelie.com</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.hijackingcatastrophe.org">www.hijackingcatastrophe.org</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.americanempireproject.com">www.americanempireproject.com</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html">www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html</a><br/>
CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st <a href="edit.htm">edit</a>ion, pg D-187<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandMetAnalysisofSteel.pdf">wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandMetAnalysisofSteel.pdf</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php">www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf">wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf">www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf</a><br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.propagandamatrix.com/multimedia/Behind_the_Green_Curtain.wmv">www.propagandamatrix.com/multimedia/Behind_the_Green_Curtain.wmv</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/a20dcimfworldbank56ksnowshoefilmsdotcom.ram">sf.indymedia.org/uploads/a20dcimfworldbank56ksnowshoefilmsdotcom.ram</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.propagandamatrix.com/multimedia/PSI_01.ram">www.propagandamatrix.com/multimedia/PSI_01.ram</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/video/RMmorelli00028467_020908_194213hi.ram">www.prisonplanet.com/video/RMmorelli00028467_020908_194213hi.ram</a><br/>
Overheard:<br/>
<span class="quot">"'<br/>
The guy ... the bomb.<br/>
I was carrying ... blew up like six of them - HA HA HA.<br/>
Chasing the terrorists<br/>
I like to <a href="use.htm">use</a> the submachine gun ...<br/>
<br/>
I like the <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hine gun fire, the effects and such, but there is just too much swearing!<br/>
Ya, just turn off the sound<br/>
<br/>
If you were in <a href="real.htm">real</a> combat you wouldn't be yelling. You'd be doing your <a href="job.htm">job</a> and talking ...<br/>
It just sucks because it's what I hate about the whole thing.<br/>
I must have heard the F word more this last week than in all the last year.<br/>
If I wanted to go see an R rated movie I would!<br/>
Potty mouths ...<br/>
'"</span><br/>
<br/>
Heavy <a href="compu.htm">compu</a>ter <a href="user.htm">user</a>s - especially myopic - have higher glaucoma rates <a class="ext" href="http://globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041116.gthglaucoma16/BNStory/Technology">globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041116.gthglaucoma16/BNStory/Technology</a><br/>
<br/>
Experimental <a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>hines <a href="work.htm">Work</a>shop<br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.armory.com/~wavejump/Community.html">www.armory.com/~wavejump/Community.html</a><br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm">marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm</a> is one of a couple of essays from Brian Marshall about the social and <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omic consequences of automation.<br/>
<br/>
Automation is Client Policy XML<br/>
<br/>
I had a dream 2 nights ago about tens of thousands of varieties of edible and medicinal mushrooms growing all over my <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty and spreading all over the neighborhood.<br/>
<br/>
----<br/>
<br/>
From: John Tomlinson <jrt126us@<a class="ext" href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a>><br/>
Subject: hey<br/>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:22:55 -0700 <small>(PDT)</small><br/>
<br/>
Hey Pat whats going on I finally have a damn minute to<br/>
e-<a href="mail.htm">mail</a>. So anyway how is everything going. um its<br/>
kinda just same old shit <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> day forr me I just<br/>
hurt a lot and on all these meds I am like stoned but<br/>
hey takes the pain away but the vicodin for my <a href="back.htm">back</a> is<br/>
<a href="mak.htm">mak</a>ing me feel that way. anyways e-<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> me <a href="back.htm">back</a> man<br/>
talk at you later John<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Nate Bushman wrote:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> <a class="ext" href="http://votepair.org">votepair.org</a></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Lets you coordinate swapping votes with someone in a swing <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e.</span><br/>
<br/>
Too bad Diebold <small>(the same company that 'accidentally' screwed up the Florida electorate database - causing ~ 48,000 voters to be erroneously disqualified from voting)</small> is involved with the electronic voting <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hines that many <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>es will be using this year.<br/>
<br/>
These <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hines will further trivialize the thieving of our democracy.<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-01.htm">www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-01.htm</a><br/>
<br/>
But I hold no hope for any such tactics. Even if the elections weren't a joke at a dozen levels, our public officials <small>(Republican == Democrat)</small> have become too powerful. National - and often world - decisions are based on personal financial gain. They hide behind a theater of pomp and righteousness while collecting favors from the corporations they coddle.<br/>
<br/>
We must disempower them. We must starve them. Boycotts are only <a href="real.htm">real</a>istic when an alternative can be had. I now <a href="know.htm">know</a> how to implement the cry of "Power to the people". Nobody yet believes me, but one day everyone will say "obviously".<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
My latest T-shirt slogan:<br/>
<a href="own.htm">Own</a> or be <a href="own.htm">own</a>ed.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Overheard: ... the pirating in China and Russia ...<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">"'Central to Gandhi's philosophy was the principle of 'swadeshi', which, in effect, means local self-sufficiency.'"</span> -- <a class="ext" href="http://www.squat.net/caravan/ICC-en/Krrs-en/ghandi-econ-en.htm">www.squat.net/caravan/ICC-en/Krrs-en/ghandi-econ-en.htm</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Download the latest <a href="back.htm">back</a>ward <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> from: <a class="ext" href="http://patware.freeshell.org/linki/htm/NoteMacs.htm">patware.freeshell.org/linki/htm/NoteMacs.htm</a><br/>
<br/>
We need a Roots Revolution!<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="h3">=== Features ===</span><br/>
1. Those accustomed to *indows or CUA bindings may find <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> especially foreign.<br/>
<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s comes with these bindings on by default.<br/>
<a href="use.htm">Use</a> M-x customize-group .<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s RET to adjust them.<br/>
<br/>
2. The hundreds of <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>es in <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> are somewhat consistient.<br/>
<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s <a href="key.htm">key</a> bindings increase consistiency - especially for navigation.<br/>
See ~/<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s/.<a href="key.htm">key</a>s to adjust them.<br/>
<br/>
see ~/<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s/.custom for mostly cosmetic changes.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="h3">=== <a href="install.htm">Install</a>ation ===</span><br/>
Download <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s from <a class="ext" href="http://freecache.org/patware.freeshell.org/NoteMacs.zip">freecache.org/patware.freeshell.org/NoteMacs.zip</a><br/>
Unzip <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s.zip into your HOME directory <small>(c: by default)</small>. The .<a href="emacs.htm">emacs</a> <a href="file.htm">file</a> should end up in HOME.<br/>
<br/>
Download <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> from <a class="ext" href="http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net">nqmacs.sourceforge.net</a><br/>
<br/>
Unzip <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> anywhere you like <small>(say <a class="ext" href="file:///c:\Program">c:\Program</a> <a href="file.htm">File</a>s\<a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a>)</small>.<br/>
Run <a class="ext" href="file:///c:\Program Files\Emacs\bin\runemacs.exe">"c:\Program Files\Emacs\bin\runemacs.exe"</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="h3">=== Extras <small>(offline for bandwidth reasons)</small> === </span><br/>
The ~/<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s/bin <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age raises the standard of <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>ing on W32.<br/>
<br/>
Notable inclusions:<br/>
~/<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s/bin/<a href="cygwin.htm">cygwin</a>.min/: bash bzip2 chmod chown cmp cp cvs dd <a href="diff.htm">diff</a> <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>3 du find grep gzip ls md5sum <a href="mount.htm">mount</a> mv ps rm tar top touch u<a href="mount.htm">mount</a> unzip wget which zip<br/>
<br/>
~/<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s/bin/3rd/: Context <a href="file.htm">FILE</a>MON I_VIEW32 <a href="prop.htm">Prop</a>sFor REGMON arcext coolplayer ctags ht <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>plug mpg123 mplayerc <a href="pdf.htm">pdf</a>totext upx w3m<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="h3">=== Discussion ===</span><br/>
I appreciate the itch you are trying to scratch for others stuck for whatever reason on Windows, and have myself encountered many unnecessary-seeming <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>iculties with several similar <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> on Windows projects <small>(all-in-one binaries from the Text Encoding Initiative, <a href="cygwin.htm">Cygwin</a>, and Lisp in a Box)</small>, but, speaking strictly personally, I can have no confidence whatsoever in such a totally a)</small> undocumented download from b)</small> an un<a href="know.htm">know</a>n and in fact c)</small> unnamed <small>('patware')</small> <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e, d)</small> hosted on appa<a href="rent.htm">rent</a>ly untracable <small>(I didn't try)</small> <a href="free.htm">free</a>bie domains <small>(<a class="ext" href="http://freeshell.org">freeshell.org</a> and <a class="ext" href="http://freecache.org">freecache.org</a>, with e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> at <a class="ext" href="http://bigfoot.org">bigfoot.org</a>)</small>. And what do you suppose '<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s' con<a href="note.htm">note</a>s to a skeptic? I do *not* doubt your good intentions, but frankly, this does not seem at all attractive. I trust the <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> mavens here to either give this implementation a peer review, consider asking for adequate documentation, or <a href="delet.htm">delet</a>ing this entry on behalf of those who might only give <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> one or two chances on Windows. There are other <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> on Windows solutions -- I've named three -- and these need better documentation, too. -- Anon<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> Thanks for the feed<a href="back.htm">back</a>. Here are my answers <small>(in <a href="back.htm">back</a>ward order)</small>:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> 1. EMacro, Lisp:wthreetwo-feeling-<a href="mod.htm">mod</a>e, WThirtyTwo<a href="install.htm">Install</a>ationKit and many other projects and snippets compete with <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> 2. I will assume you are a skeptic. What does the word <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s con<a href="note.htm">note</a> to you?<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> 3. I've removed the binaries for size reasons, but can elisp not do as much damage? <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> gives you full access to <a href="disk.htm">disk</a>, <a href="net.htm">net</a><a href="work.htm">work</a>ing, process creation. All elisp should be checked with UnsafeP before execution.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> 4. Do .com domains instill more confidence? What about .<a href="net.htm">net</a>? What kind of e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> address gives you that sure feeling? If my <a href="web.htm">web</a> hosting and e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> addresses were <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> would you have downloaded and run these programs? What if the elisp contained a virus? Is this possible?<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> 5. <a class="ext" href="http://Freeshell.org">Freeshell.org</a> is very slow, and is not enough <a href="spac.htm">spac</a>e. I'm attempting to host from my house connection, but don't have it set up yet. <a class="ext" href="http://Freecache.org">Freecache.org</a> is an interesting project that let's communities share bandwidth. I hope to eventually get a project up on <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>eForge or Savannah or Gna.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> 6. The goals of the three projects you mention are not similar to those of <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span>-- PatrickAnderson<br/>
<br/>
333<br/>
<br/>
I've added a few questions of my <a href="own.htm">own</a> to the <small>[<small>[<a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s]</small>]</small> page. You should add your wiki-linked name there, as well as on your <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s download page, <small>[<small>[PatrickAnderson]</small>]</small>. I only found your name by poking around here longer than intended. Please accept my apologies if my 'expression of grave concern over <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s' <small>(as I summarized my post)</small> seems overly skeptical, but I've just wasted a couple hours with trying to get *another* underdocumented <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> on Windows 'solution' to <a href="work.htm">work</a> on Windows, and I'm losing my patience. And that buggy one <a href="cam.htm">cam</a>e from a well-<a href="know.htm">know</a>n individual on a major open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e project. <small>(At this point, I'm beginning to think, based on the contemptuous expressions of disdain for Windows, and even Windows <a href="user.htm">user</a>s, I've seen in <small>[<small>[Ric<a href="hard.htm">hard</a><a href="stallman.htm">Stallman</a>]</small>]</small>'s helpful <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> tutorial, and elsewhere, that he <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly *doesn't care* if <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> <a href="work.htm">work</a>s well on Windows.)</small> Be that as it may, without <a href="know.htm">know</a>ing in advance what specific itches <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s scratches and what <a href="file.htm">file</a>s it includes and what functions they peform, I can't <a href="imag.htm">imag</a>ine why anyone might be interested in downloading it, when similar solutions of some tenure are on offer from reputable <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es. Please take it as a wake up call -- documentation matters! -- Anon<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> Thanks for the feed<a href="back.htm">back</a>. Here are my answers <small>(in <a href="back.htm">back</a>ward order)</small>:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> . Tenure and reputable <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es - Oh My! I'm sorry you can't <a href="imag.htm">imag</a>ine.<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> . Why would Ric<a href="hard.htm">hard</a><a href="stallman.htm">Stallman</a> be interested in anything at all? Aren't your interests more important?<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> . You say "wasted a couple hours ... <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> on Windows 'solution' ... from a well-<a href="know.htm">know</a>". What <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age is that by the way, I'd like to steal some code from it.<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> . Sorry to hear you "poked around here longer than intended". Kind of addictive isn't it?<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span> . <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s seems like a terrible curse but is meant to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> more intuitive.<br/>
<span class="bullet">:</span>-- PatrickAnderson<br/>
<br/>
--<br/>
<br/>
Patrick, I have constructive answers to your first six substantive, clarifying questions, but they can wait. You are getting bent out of shape for no good reason. I offer you a gift, a marketing manager's perspective on how to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e this page more informative and your <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age more appealing to your target market, <a href="new.htm">new</a>bie <a href="user.htm">user</a>s of <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> on Windows, such as myself, but we cross-<a href="edit.htm">edit</a>ed to bad effect, as you'll see below, so I won't address your latest somewhat erutammi remarks, but wait for you to read this, and <a href="delet.htm">delet</a>e from my mark 333 above to the 666 below. Or not. It's your <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age, and your page as far as I am concerned, and if you are happy with how how it is doing relative to what you say are "many other projects and snippets compete with <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s", then so am I. At the moment all I have to contribute to the <a href="emacs.htm">Emacs</a> community are my <a href="new.htm">new</a>bie eyes and online marketing sense. FWIW, I did download your <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age and await your <a href="edit.htm">edit</a>orial eyes. -- PaulWilson, for the third time, and not Anon <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Hi<a href="stor.htm">stor</a>y of WThirtyTwo<a href="install.htm">Install</a>ationKit<br/>
<br/>
Revision 19 . . . . 2004-09-07 21:07 UTC by PatrickAnderson <small>(minor)</small><br/>
<br/>
Revision 18 . . . . 2004-09-07 21:06 UTC by PatrickAnderson -- moved <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s rant.<br/>
<br/>
Revision 17 . . . . 2004-09-07 21:05 UTC by PaulWilson -- removed my ignorant questions, which were answered on <a href="note.htm">Note</a><a href="mac.htm">Mac</a>s page <small>(minor)</small><br/>
<br/>
My marking my self-<a href="delet.htm">delet</a>ion minor did not help, rendering it invisible in RecentChanges I suppose, but your copy and paste, er, yank, followed within s<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>ds, so it looks like just one of those things that <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e online communication so challenging. Let's <a href="start.htm">start</a> over.<br/>
<br/>
666<br/>
<br/>
Running late.<br/>
<br/>
I'll just <a href="work.htm">work</a> from home after noon unless you need me.<br/>
<br/>
756 6306<br/>
<a href="start.htm">start</a>ed <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing on ui.exe again<br/>
Tommy Franks interviewd in Cigar Aficionado Dec 2003<br/>
The Armageddon Plan<br/>
Thanks for the feed<a href="back.htm">back</a>.<br/>
<br/>
Nushman wrote:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>Well, if you <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly want to <a href="know.htm">know</a>, the following <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>ement sounds a bit</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>like a fanatical rant. It's the kind of <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>ement that <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>es people go</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>"Uh, right, okay... I'll read remaining text with many grains of salt."</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> The term "The <a href="econ.htm">Econ</a>omy" in this document refers to the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> hoarding-enabled raw capitalism and globalization that</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> is destroying humanity and our planet.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">>Many people may feel that they benefit from a good "<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy" despite the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>fact that much of the wealth of the <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy is held by <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>ortionately</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>few.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<br/>
Yes, it is a bit strong for those not aware of what is <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly oc<a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ing. 3rd world poverty/slavery and the environmental destruction our government is paid <small>(by corporations)</small> to cause is bringing our species to the brink of disaster. I should be a little more light handed - especially at the beginning of the document, and considering I don't give any data to support such a claim.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">>People may also feel that they benefit from the development of re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>by corporations even though the re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es are locked closed. They may</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>also see <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>iculty and disadvantages with the locked open paradigm</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>because it can be a disincentive to re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e development due to a more</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>uncertain <a href="profit.htm">profit</a>.</span><br/>
<br/>
Uncertain <a href="profit.htm">profit</a> from locked open finite re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es.<br/>
This is still certainly the case with<br/>
<br/>
I've heard this view many times by those who claim <a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software is not successful because of lack of incentive.<br/>
<br/>
If I were <a href="rms.htm">RMS</a> in 1985 trying to convince you, I would have nothing more to say since there would not yet be any proof.<br/>
<br/>
But today this claim <small>(with respect to software)</small> is <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>icult to support.<br/>
<br/>
Did you <a href="know.htm">know</a> MicroSCOfts CFO rated "Linux and Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e" <small>(they never <a href="use.htm">use</a> the term <a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software because they don't <a href="user.htm">user</a>s to understand the <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence)</small> as their #2 threat?<br/>
<br/>
"Microsoft is taking the Linux threat seriously. So seriously, in fact, that open-<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e software comes in at the No. 2 spot on the company's top five list of risks." -- <a class="ext" href="http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=12800942">www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=12800942</a><br/>
<br/>
Here are some other<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> <a href="game.htm">Game</a>s<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Media<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Music<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> <a href="hard.htm">Hard</a>ware<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Access<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Food<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>Personally I think that sometimes it <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>es sense to</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>lock a re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e closed and sometimes it <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>es sense not to. My gauge</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>for whether it <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>es sense or not is whether it will be <a href="profit.htm">profit</a>able. I</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>believe this is the only practical gauge as I, like every other human</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>being, am selfish.</span><br/>
<br/>
Higher <a href="profit.htm">profit</a> from locked closed finite re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es, selfishness.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>If companies have less incentive to develop</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es which are in turn <a href="use.htm">use</a>d by the consumer, then the consumer may</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>end up with less choice/selection, which isn't desireable.</span><br/>
<br/>
Less choice.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>They may</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>also feel that the selfish nature of capitalism is actually a good</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>thing, in that it gives the individual the incentive to compete, thus</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>benefiting the whole, not to mention that selfishness is inhe<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> to</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>human nature and should be leveraged for communal good rather than</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>stymied.</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Thank you for the thoughtful critique.<br/>
<br/>
Your response is very <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> from any of the others. Though you misunderstand me and address issues I am not interested in, these <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>iculties must be addressed to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e the final document more clear.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">>As you explain these various forms of <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omics, <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> attention to the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>words "allows" and "disallows". Allows = <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom. Disallows = slavery.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>You are trying to _force_ people to be generous and not hoard things.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>That in itself is a form of slavery. When you take a people who are</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>selfish and force them to be unselfish, you are forcing them against</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>their <a href="own.htm">own</a> wills and the whole system will collapse eventually as it has</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>repeatedly with communism.</span><br/>
<br/>
<a href="real.htm">Real</a>ize any LOCKING license - both Microsoft EULAs and the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> are only licenses. They are neither laws nor <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omic systems. If you read the document carefully you will see I don't intend to change laws or the <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omic system because they are too <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>icult to change.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
LOCKING licenses are adjustments to the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership rules of resouces - but can _only_ be applied by the <a href="own.htm">own</a>er. When I LOCK OPEN organism genetics I am not stopping you from hoarding your <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty. I am only stopping you from hoarding _my_ <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <small>(I should mention the ability to lock such things at all - to even claim them as <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty - is distasteful to me, but since Monsanto and others have already <a href="start.htm">start</a>ed locking them closed, we must defend ourselves)</small>. If you choose to <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>d upon my <a href="work.htm">work</a> <small>(for instance by adjusting the genetic qualities of peach you grew from a seed received under the GGPL)</small>, then you have <a href="agree.htm">agree</a>d <small>(through the license applied to that peach)</small> to lock your changes open. But you are not forced to do so. If a locking license doesn't appeal to you, you should find organism genetics that are still UNLOCKED. There are many to be had for now, but if you look carefully at seed catalogs you will find there are fewer each year.<br/>
<br/>
If you still want to think of LOCKING licenses as _forcing_ compliance, it is worth noting that LOCKED CLOSED licenses force people to hoard. Since LOCKED OPEN is the only way to keep finite resouces from being LOCKED CLOSED, eventually everything will be locked one way or the other. Do you hope they are CLOSED or OPEN?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>When people hoard and <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e mistakes and are jerks and choose the wrong</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>things, they can learn from those experiences and become better people</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>if they choose to. If you take away the choice of hoarding, being</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>selfish, <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>ing mistakes, etc., you take away that person's <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom and</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>you become a controller of people just like the "bad" people who are</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>enslaving people today! You also take away their right to be generous</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>of their <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="free.htm">free</a> will too! They are generous because they are forced</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>to, not because they learn to do it of their <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="free.htm">free</a> will. They are</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>therefore dependant upon you for their <a href="own.htm">own</a> generosity. If you leave the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">><a href="pic.htm">pic</a>ture, their selfishness will return and you haven't improved them one</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>bit.</span><br/>
<br/>
Does our society <a href="use.htm">use</a> laws that disallow?<br/>
Would you say a society should never <a href="use.htm">use</a> laws that disallow?<br/>
Is there a way to categorize activities which should be disallowed?<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">>It's not the <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omics, it's the people! If the people are "good"</span><br/>
<span class="quot">><small>(unselfish, etc.)</small> then these <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omic <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>els would probably <a href="work.htm">work</a>. If</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>the people are "bad" <small>(selfish, etc.)</small> then these <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omic <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>els would</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>probably fail. <a href="work.htm">Work</a> on the people and getting them to be unselfish by</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>their <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="free.htm">free</a> will.</span><br/>
<br/>
You are hoping selfishness can be solved by "<a href="work.htm">work</a><small>[ing]</small> on the people"? What should we do - beg the hoarders to give up their <a href="land.htm">land</a>/IP/genetics/designs? This is very unlikely to have any effect. Even if it did, they would immediately be grabbed by others to hoard again.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>I think that the only way to have what you desire is by getting people</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>to become less selfish of their <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="free.htm">free</a> will rather than compelling</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>them to be unselfish. Gather these people together and form a society</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>with them. These people would be selfless, generous, concerned for</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>others as much as for themselves, and completely <a href="free.htm">free</a>! You would then</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>only allow people who are <small>(of their <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="free.htm">free</a> will)</small> truly generous to</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>enter the society. The rest of the people who don't choose to be that</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>way will eventually die of their <a href="own.htm">own</a> hoarding and selfishness.</span><br/>
<br/>
This sounds extraordinarily far fetched. On the other hand, it is similar to a long term goal I have to LOCK OPEN some <a href="land.htm">land</a>.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
later...<br/>
<br/>
Co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er writes:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> I guess all else being the same, LOCKED OPEN destroys competition, which is why socialism and communism always collapse since we humans seem to need some competition and a bit of greed motivating us to <a href="work.htm">work</a> <a href="hard.htm">hard</a> and come up with <a href="new.htm">new</a>er and better things, etc.</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
So it would probably be best if the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> had never written, and even more important that the a Generalized <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> never be written, for the <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom would <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e greed unimportant.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Pat, what happened to you? You <a href="use.htm">use</a>d to be so upbeat. You'd walk into <a href="work.htm">work</a>, all, "I love everything, especially you, Tom." And also, your time-honored selfless advice to simply refrain from having kids. Given while shaking your hands at your <a href="moni.htm">moni</a>tor, no less. You are one of my favorites, sir. For my <a href="part.htm">part</a>, I don't cr<a href="edit.htm">edit</a> people with sufficient intelligence to pull off a global conspiracy. Some unremarkable internet essayist whose name I don't even remember once said, "Never assume malice in what can reasonably be explained by stupidity." I was also glad to hear you are <a href="start.htm">start</a>ing your <a href="gnu.htm">GNU</a> <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e thing<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Don't think they need to be so smart. Our government is actually very sloppy, but since corporations have such heavy influence <small>("Fascism should more ap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riately be called corporatism, since it is the merger of <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini)</small>, and since mega-media conglomerates are nothing more than corporations - it's easy to see our media is finally _<a href="stat.htm">Stat</a>e_ media. They feed us so carefully that the acts of terrorisms they create for their <a href="own.htm">own</a> purposes need not be ingenious. I challenge you to watch this video and think about my claims: <a class="ext" href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/painful_deceptions_excerpt.wmv">www.prisonplanet.com/painful_deceptions_excerpt.wmv</a> <small>(26 Megs)</small><br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I don't blame the supplier of <a href="new.htm">new</a>s in this case. It sells. I blame the people buying it. Our country eats this stuff up. They don't watch the discovery channel, they watch the sensational <a href="new.htm">new</a>s for tales of human suffering. They want train wrecks, suicide bombers, plagues, and worst of all in my book, <a href="real.htm">real</a>ity television. Innovation in entertaiment is stifled by the greed of the people at the top of that heap and they simply dole out what sells as cheaply as they can. Who is going to win this fall's election? Kerry, due to what some claim is a <a href="lib.htm">lib</a>eral media bias? Maybe, but if he wins all that will mean is that he gave more <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y to the media. It doesn't mean they <a href="agree.htm">agree</a> with him.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Both candidates are members of the "Skull and Bones". It is easy to dismiss this as an unimportant conspiracy theory, but where do their allegiences lie? Our republic is in danger because our "leaders" are too powerfull. The only way to take that power <a href="back.htm">back</a> is to stop <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing the corporations that run them. The only way to stop <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing is to boycott. The only way to boycott is to have an alternative. The only alternative is <a href="own.htm">own</a>ing your means of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
with the peanuts. I remember some conversation about an apple analogy for an intellectual <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty discussion <a href="back.htm">back</a> in the day at Novarad.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Please tell me more about the apple analogy if you remember.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Once upon a time we were talking about intellectual <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty. I was expressing the opinion that software couldn't be <a href="free.htm">free</a> just because it is infinitely and <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>lessly re<a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ible. The apple analogy was a question you presented to me. You asked something to the effect of, "If an apple were infinitely and <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>lessly re<a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ible, should it be <a href="free.htm">free</a>."<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I've discovered that apples are very close to being infinitely and <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>lessly re<a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ible after the initial setting up <small>(soil preparation, automatic irrigation, gifting ground cover)</small>. Lowering the <a href="work.htm">work</a>load through<br/>
<br/>
1. old time wisdom<br/>
2. careful decisions<br/>
3. <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ern, low-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a> technology<br/>
<br/>
Unfortunately there are many corporations <small>(Monstanto is a good example)</small> that are locking organism genetics closed to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e such things <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificially scarce.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
The commune is more commitment to anti-establishment <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>ologies than I can muster. The Man doesn't care, and unless you hold a fanatical reverence for the <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>ology from which such a commune would stem, it would <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e no positive impact on one's quality of life. Good luck with it, though. Let me <a href="know.htm">know</a> how it<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
You claim it would <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e "no positive impact" because you are <small>(along with most US citizens)</small> <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ently near the top of the heap. But that heap is not guaranteed to be infinitely sustainable. In fact, if I am able to help the 3rd world slaves achieve personal sovereignty, the cheap labor that gives us LOW LOW <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>es will dry up - as those people will then have the choice, the option of staying home to <a href="work.htm">work</a> on their gifting <a href="land.htm">land</a>scaping instead of <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing 18 hrs/day for 12 cents/hr, some <a href="start.htm">start</a>ing at age 9 sewing shirts for Disney in a Bangladesh sweat shop while spending up to 90% of their income on food and almost 5% of their income on water.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Excellent point. The progression of other societies would be excellent and solving the survival problem from a personally sustaining perspective is the first step towards doing that. There is a societal change that takes place after that initial growth that I will address later.<br/>
<br/>
This reminds me of the early science fiction <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a that robots would <a href="work.htm">work</a> side by side with people, doing the dangerous, tedious repetative tasks, in a way providing and <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ing goods for humans who are then fortunate enough to <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>e in a peaceful egalitarian soceity of plenty. The <a href="real.htm">real</a>ity is that robots replace people and people get <a href="left.htm">left</a> behind.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
There are two <a href="part.htm">part</a>s to my answer. They are separated by _<a href="own.htm">own</a>ership_.<br/>
<br/>
1. We already <a href="use.htm">use</a> robotics to accomplish tedious tasks. The automatic irrigation I mentioned is a great example of this. If the citizen _<a href="own.htm">own</a>s_ the apple tree, then the solution is good for society, and nobody is 'replaced'.<br/>
<br/>
2. On the otherhand, if the citizen is <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing for someone else <small>(irrigating apple trees in this case)</small>, and the _<a href="own.htm">own</a>er_ of the trees begins using robotics to automatically irrigate the trees, the solution suddenly appears to be bad for society because the <a href="work.htm">work</a>er loses his <a href="job.htm">job</a>.<br/>
<br/>
This very phenomenon is occuring in China. The manufacturing capital of the world has seen a decline in manufacturing <a href="job.htm">job</a>s even though the output has continued to rise. This comes from increases in automation and efficiency. It's easy to see if humans do not have the opportunity to have some <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership over <a href="land.htm">land</a> <small>(actually Finite Re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es including water and other things)</small>, Intellectual <a href="proper.htm">Proper</a>ty <small>(including both technology designs and organism genetics)</small> they <small>(the have-nots)</small> will become more and more poor as the rich become more and more rich.<br/>
<br/>
This is not neccessary. It is by design. <a href="land.htm">Land</a> and IP hoarding concentrate wealth through <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Exploitation is occuring in this world because humans have been tricked out of sustainable practices to perpetuate the ancient magic of slavery.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Elaborate on "sustainable practices." What I think you mean is practices which do not depend on another <a href="part.htm">part</a>y in order to be perpetuated, which breaks down quickly on examination of any theoretical soceity that is not entirely engaged in survival.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Sustainable practices _can_ be achieved. They have been achieved in the past, and things are only easier when you apply <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ern techniques of organic gardening and <a href="use.htm">use</a> some low-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a> technology. They have had only limited success in the past for several reasons:<br/>
<br/>
1. The greatest barrier to sustainable <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>ing <small>(which I call personal sovereignty)</small> is <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
This concentrates wealth through <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity of <a href="land.htm">land</a>, technology and organism genetics.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Because these things <a href="cost.htm">cost</a> <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y, they are automatically unavailable to some portion of the <a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ulation. The things is, it takes re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es to <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e technology, which is the limiting factor on the <a href="use.htm">use</a>fulness of the other two. As technology increases, the portion of the <a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ulation necessary to supply the physical needs of the people decreases. It would follow that this surplus <a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ulation would <a href="work.htm">work</a> to distribute goods, which would be distributed more efficiently as technology increases, and others would <a href="work.htm">work</a> to support existing technology, some would advance the technology and other would manage the implementation of <a href="new.htm">new</a> technology and recycling of displaced technology. Finally some people would be necessary to manage the allocation of personnel, or at least manage the human scheduler that runs HR.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
todo...<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
The problem is that due to progression of technology the role some people fill will be bound to change. Retraining takes re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es. For that matter, initial training takes re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es. Add teachers to the above list.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="curr.htm">Curr</a>ently, the grand management system of our <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy is <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y. It doesn't succeed universally, but the remarkable thing about it is that it <a href="work.htm">work</a>s assuming self-interested, self-aggrandizing, competitive behavior. You think that it is controlled by some higher power. I simply dis<a href="agree.htm">agree</a>.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
todo...<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
<a href="work.htm">work</a>s out. It's all a great big <a href="game.htm">game</a>, this <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy; the mechanics of <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>ing in it. Take care that you don't <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> too high a <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>e to stop playing it.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I'm actually hoping to break the rules - <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>ing <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y along the way by stealing from the rich <small>(selling organic <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ts in small <a href="pack.htm">pack</a>ages to vanity driven consumers)</small> while <a href="employ.htm">employ</a>ing the poor to do the <a href="work.htm">work</a>. I'm <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ently ramping up to planting several thousand almond and northern pecan trees along with grains, berries, herbs/spices, mushrooms, etc. The <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a is sometimes called 'permaculture' or 'edible <a href="land.htm">land</a>scaping', but my <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a is beyond just food - to include plants, animals and fungus that can be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d as drugs, cloth <small>(cotton, silk, hemp, flax)</small>, fuel <small>(ethanol, methanol, biodiesel)</small>, nearly every human need. It is an overwhelming project, so I'm sure most people <small>(as you have indicated)</small> will have little interest initially. But in the end it creates wealth that is <a href="virt.htm">virt</a>ually impenetrable. When the <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy finally fails because of fiat <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y <small>(which is the main goal of the Federal Reserve)</small>, those with the ability to <a href="employ.htm">employ</a> themselves <small>(without even the need to have consumers)</small> will continue to <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>e comfortably. My eventual goal is to buy cheap, undeveloped <a href="land.htm">land</a> and create entire self-sustained municipalities based on this concept while using Henry George's <a href="land.htm">land</a> taxation <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as to ensure the city develops quickly. There is much <a href="work.htm">work</a> to do - especially in the <a href="arena.htm">arena</a> of material handling automation - though much of the <a href="work.htm">work</a> has already been done, but needs to be scaled down.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I <a href="agree.htm">agree</a> that the only way to actually be independant is to provide for every necessity yourself. The world got the way it is largely because of human nature. Once <a href="lib.htm">lib</a>erated from their <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent masters, there would not automatically be an absence of the undesirable qualities possessed by what you refer to as the "Global Elite" because only the people at the bottom of the heap want equality. Even the poor, alongside other poor people, want to be better than their peers. As even as you could possibly <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e the social structure, individuals, even a minority of them, will always do their best to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e peaks out of their little niche. And I assert that a large portion of the people who did not feel the need to raise themselves up would become discontent upon discovery of those who did. In the event that everyone must <a href="work.htm">work</a> to support the social well being, what does everyone do? Do we return to subsistence farming? In the event that the basic necessities of life are provided be a relatively small <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>ortion of the <a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ulation as is <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ently the case and technologically possible, what does everyone else do? This leads easily to your sequence of questions at the end of your e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a>.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
And in retrospect, I apologize for the winking sarcasm indicator. It is <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>erately homosexual.<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Homosexuals are people that should be respected as much as any other.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Obviously. I am well over homophobia and at this point it is <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly more of a colloquiality.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I am not <a href="part.htm">part</a>icularly interested beyond potentially collecting a <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>check. AccessData is<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Why do you <a href="work.htm">work</a>? This is an annoying question meant to slow down your thinking. Please answer as a prioritized list.<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I like eating regularly.<br/>
I require medical <a href="insur.htm">insur</a>ance. Out of pocket, my medical bills would <a href="cost.htm">cost</a> in the hundreds of thousands of dollars annually.<br/>
I enjoy recreational activities that <a href="cost.htm">cost</a> <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y.<br/>
I want to be in a position to raise children with as wide an array of opportunities as possible.<br/>
<br/>
That is pretty much it. Nowhere in there is personal fulfillment, ambition, or a desire to contribute to society. Those things exist to any degree that the do as a by<a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t of trying to justify the time I spend satisfying the above four <a href="obj.htm">obj</a>ectives. Three of the four are possibly addressed in other ways, but the <a href="insur.htm">insur</a>ance thing is set in stone. My blood all but refuses to clot. I cannot solve that problem myself. My choice as to whether I play this grand socio<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omic <a href="game.htm">game</a> is sufficiently bleak as to be functionally nonexistent. Thus I <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e do.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Why do "slave laborers" <a href="work.htm">work</a> for slave <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>?<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Three reasons: They don't <a href="know.htm">know</a>. Subtly <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> from the first is, their perception does not include the possibility of a "higher" <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e. Often times, they don't have a better option.<br/>
<br/>
The baseline for existence isn't content survival. If you don't play by the rules of society, in most cases that means you are denied some of the necessities of life. There is no default "get fed and do nothing option."<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Why do people try to immigrate to the US?<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
There is little question that on average the quality of life in the United <a href="stat.htm">Stat</a>es is higher than other countries. The US isn't the best theoretical country, but it is about as good as they come in <a href="real.htm">real</a>ity.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Is a world plenty and peace possible?<br/>
<br/>
Verrd----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
At present, no. People will not arrive at such an arrangement unless forced, and if forced, it would be definition not be such an arrangement.<br/>
Co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
This seems a bit interesting. The first two minutes or so are in Dutch but the rest is in English. If this stuff is true, it seems as though there's some funny business going on. :<small>(<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm">www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
This is also covered in the movie Fahrenheit 911 - which I saw last week.<br/>
<br/>
Of course the internet is overloaded with info about this.<br/>
<br/>
Here's a link about Carlyle I found a while ago which includes Rumsfeld ties<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair05222004.html">www.counterpunch.org/stclair05222004.html</a><br/>
<br/>
I suppose one can never <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly <a href="know.htm">know</a> the truth.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Yes - it is very <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>icult to see clearly with all of the politics and power, etc. I think your <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a of detaching from all of this and becoming completely self-sufficient is the only way out. I believe that this will all come crashing down, either on purpose or by accident, and when it does, I had better have my garden up and running. And if it's all just false <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>aganda and fear mongering, then that's still fine and I just get some <a href="free.htm">free</a> food out of my <a href="own.htm">own</a> garden. :)</small><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Some claim the Great Depression was planned and purposefully executed. <a href="land.htm">Land</a> hoarding plays a big <a href="part.htm">part</a> in the problem.<br/>
<br/>
I would like to take cr<a href="edit.htm">edit</a>, but this isn't <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly "my <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a" - it is a conglomeration of <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as that people have been trying get up and running since the beginning of time; well since the beginning of exploitation.<br/>
<br/>
The ancient magic <small>(magic meaning it is a trick played on our mind that we must be subserviant to those in control)</small> of slavery will continue until we create options to allow us to choose _not_ to <a href="fund.htm">fund</a> the mega corporations that invade countries for their <a href="own.htm">own</a> benefit.<br/>
<br/>
The IMF and World<a href="bank.htm">Bank</a> are conduits which allow corporations like Enron to decimate entire countries such as Argentina.<br/>
<br/>
A garden is an important <a href="start.htm">start</a>ing point. This gives us the power to not <a href="fund.htm">fund</a> the wars through our food purchases. But in my mind we must have <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership over all needs and wants. This means using licenses to lock open <a href="land.htm">land</a>, technology, transportation, medication, media etc. in sensible ways so that people who are willing to <a href="work.htm">work</a> cannot be exploited by denying them their basic organic needs.<br/>
<br/>
Plant genetics and ancient <a href="know.htm">know</a>ledge is being locked closed to concentrate wealth through <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity:<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://ip.aaas.org/tekindex.nsf/TEKPAD?OpenFrameSet">ip.aaas.org/tekindex.nsf/TEKPAD?OpenFrameSet</a><br/>
<br/>
I was looking at <a href="map.htm">map</a>s that show over 60% of the <a href="land.htm">land</a> in the US is supposedly <a href="own.htm">own</a>ed by foreign holders, much of it through the UN. I don't fully understand it, but a friend of mine told me that figure continues to increase because we sell 'bonds' to allow us to carry our "national debt" <small>(or was it deficit?)</small>. Anyway, I need to research this more. It is a major concern of mine.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="part.htm">Part</a>icipating in a system that <a href="use.htm">use</a>s the sweat of the <a href="work.htm">work</a>er against that <a href="work.htm">work</a>er is not just a dead end road, it is a road to death.<br/>
<br/>
Henry George talked about this in the late 1800's. The <a href="game.htm">game</a> Monopoly is based on a <a href="game.htm">game</a> invented by a woman attempting to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e a political <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>ement about George's <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as. Her version was called "The <a href="land.htm">Land</a>lord's <a href="game.htm">Game</a>" and had two sets of rules. One set of rules were approximately what Monopoly is today. The other set caused the players to <a href="use.htm">use</a>s Henry George's <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as to preclude the re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e speculation <small>(hoarding in hopes of capitalization)</small> that is the root cause of poverty throughout the world.<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://rpgdx.net/whitedoor/main.php">rpgdx.net/whitedoor/main.php</a><br/>
overheard: "Praise the Lord and <a href="pass.htm">pass</a> the ammunition." on the God <a href="stat.htm">Stat</a>ion.<br/>
<br/>
co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">>Neverball is fun though the controls take some getting <a href="use.htm">use</a>d to since the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>"<a href="cam.htm">cam</a>era" seems to change angles and <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e the controls relative - it's</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>weird but with practice, I'm sure I could get <a href="use.htm">use</a>d to it. I'll check</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>out the rest.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">>You mentioned "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> as in <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom" in the subject but wouldn't public</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>domain be <a href="free.htm">free</a>r than open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e? In that way, you would be <a href="free.htm">free</a> to <a href="use.htm">use</a></span><br/>
<span class="quot">>and share and contribute or you would be <a href="free.htm">free</a> to <a href="use.htm">use</a> it, tweak it, keep</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>your changes if you want to and <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e it <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>rietary? <a href="free.htm">Free</a>dom means that</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>you have choices and it seems that public domain would be <a href="free.htm">free</a>r than</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e. What do you think?</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Thanks for the response.<br/>
<br/>
Summary: The only <a href="lib.htm">lib</a>erty "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> as in <a href="free.htm">Free</a>dom" software limits is enslavement.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a href="rms.htm">RMS</a> <a href="use.htm">use</a>s "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> as in <a href="free.htm">Free</a>dom" to describe <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ts <small>(the following are my <a href="own.htm">own</a> words)</small> that have been '<a href="lib.htm">Lib</a>erated' from the <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity that the <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers have <a href="use.htm">use</a>d against mankind for thousands <small>(maybe even millions)</small> of years.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
You say "... you would be <a href="free.htm">free</a> to ... <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e it <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>rietary."<br/>
<br/>
The problem with <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>ing something <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>rietary is that the only benefit to _you_. <a href="prop.htm">Prop</a>rietary licensing creates <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity which, though it is an enormously powerful way to concentrate wealth, is bad for humankind.<br/>
<br/>
It may be clear that <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty and <a href="imag.htm">imag</a>inary <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <small>(sometimes referred to as intellectual <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty)</small> can be in one of three <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>es:<br/>
<br/>
Open but not locked:<br/>
Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e software is open <small>(the <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e is available)</small>, but the gate is not locked. <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e code under Public Domain <small>(PD actually indicates you have relinquished all copyright <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership)</small>, BSD-like, or <a href="art.htm">Art</a>istic licenses are examples. Locking of this software by those other than the original <a href="own.htm">own</a>er is allowed.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Closed but not locked:<br/>
<a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e is not available, but the binaries may be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d for any <a href="use.htm">use</a> <small>(for instance you may reverse engineer them)</small>. <a href="free.htm">Free</a>ware is sometimes in this <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e. UltraHLE is an example.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Locked Closed:<br/>
Most <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>rietary software is locked closed. The <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e is not available and it is illegal to <a href="pic.htm">pic</a>k <small>(reverse engineer)</small> these locks. This includes my <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="employ.htm">employ</a>er.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
The <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> describes one more <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e:<br/>
Locked open:<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software is locked open to <a href="protect.htm">protect</a> us from hoarders who would lock it closed otherwise to create <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificial scarcity.<br/>
<br/>
Locking open solutions allows the have-nots to climb out through sharing.<br/>
<br/>
People don't need a nursing <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e that disallows <a href="real.htm">real</a> solutions so the rich remain rich, while the poor remain destitute.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="land.htm">Land</a> continues to be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d against people so we enjoy LOW, LOW <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>es.<br/>
<br/>
Here is a poem I wrote about this:<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
The ancient magic of slavery continues unseen.<br/>
<br/>
How do get a people to do what you want?<br/>
<br/>
First you take their food, and then their <a href="land.htm">land</a>.<br/>
You tell them it's all <a href="part.htm">part</a> of the master plan.<br/>
<br/>
They simply must press on for the invisible man.<br/>
Who wants them to move stones across sand.<br/>
<br/>
To <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>d a pyramid that helps no one but them.<br/>
While those un<a href="employ.htm">employ</a>ed starve and stare at the sun.<br/>
<br/>
So even those <a href="employ.htm">employ</a>ed need barely be paid.<br/>
Since without such a thing there is no other way.<br/>
<br/>
To get the food and shelter and things you need.<br/>
See, you must <a href="work.htm">work</a> for <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y. You <a href="work.htm">work</a> for me.<br/>
<br/>
Since I <a href="own.htm">own</a> the <a href="land.htm">land</a> and equipment and access to both,<br/>
You must grovel and fight hope and hope and hope.<br/>
<br/>
That I am nice enough to keep you <a href="employ.htm">employ</a>ed until tomorrow.<br/>
And allow you to <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>e another day in utter sorrow.<br/>
<br/>
I'll <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> you just enough to keep you alive.<br/>
And <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e you believe <a href="hard.htm">hard</a> <a href="work.htm">work</a> is how to survive.<br/>
<br/>
Otherwise what would you have us do?<br/>
More hand outs, welfare, programs and <a href="free.htm">free</a> food?<br/>
<br/>
Why do you <a href="lib.htm">lib</a>erals alway whine?<br/>
When it comes time to <a href="work.htm">work</a> you call it a grind.<br/>
<br/>
We can't have <a href="land.htm">land</a> for all and personal sovereignty.<br/>
For such <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as are surely autarchy!<br/>
<br/>
There is no such a thing as a <a href="free.htm">free</a> lunch.<br/>
So get <a href="back.htm">back</a> to <a href="work.htm">work</a> you lazy bunch!<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
You may also be interested in these <small>(rough)</small> explanations:<br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://patware.freeshell.org/linki/htm/Why%20The%20GPL%20Is%20Bad%20For%20The%20Economy.html">patware.freeshell.org/linki/htm/Why%20The%20GPL%20Is%20Bad%20For%20The%20Economy.html</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://patware.freeshell.org/linki/htm/Peace%20on%20earth.html">patware.freeshell.org/linki/htm/Peace%20on%20earth.html</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Patrick,<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
<span class="quot">> Thanks for the info. I looked at all of it. I <a href="agree.htm">agree</a> that the world would be a better place if we all shared - think of how much easier everything would be! I also <a href="agree.htm">agree</a> in <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty possession since we don't have that here in the good old US of A - try not <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing your <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty taxes after you've "completely paid off" your <a href="land.htm">land</a> and see how long you "<a href="own.htm">own</a>" it for after that. I also <a href="agree.htm">agree</a> with most of everything else you say about slavery and basic needs and false scarcity, etc. What I want to do for just a minute is scale it down to just one aspect without bringing everything else in - I want to deal with one single issue at the very heart of what open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e is so that I can begin from there and <a href="work.htm">work</a> outward. I'm trying to wrap my brain around this - please help me.</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> When I asked you about "<a href="free.htm">free</a>dom" I was talking about the <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom of a programmer to do what he wants with code, not the <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom of the code itself. <a href="free.htm">Free</a>dom doesn't have strings attached to it like open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e does. A true gift doesn't come with strings attached either. <a href="imag.htm">Imag</a>ine if you got a gift on your birthday that had a card on it that said, "Here's a gift for you that you have to share with others or you have to give it <a href="back.htm">back</a> to me right now!" I would rather see a card that said "Here's a gift, I got pleasure in sharing it and I hope you choose to share it too. Keep it regardless of what you do with it. I want you to choose." I would share it, but someone else might choose not to. I <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly just want to understand this all and figure out why it's called "<a href="free.htm">free</a> as in <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom" when the <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom is for the code, not for the people who want to <a href="use.htm">use</a> the code. Please try to keep the scope of your answer down to this one simple thing. I'm still trying to figure this core element out.</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
FaiF = "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> as in <a href="free.htm">Free</a>dom"<br/>
<br/>
You say FaiF is "for the code".<br/>
You say FaiF is not "for the people".<br/>
<br/>
But you don't have the authority to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e these claims, as you did not coin the term. You have misinterpreted the phrase. FaiF _is_ "for the people". "The code" is incidental.<br/>
<br/>
Another way to think about it may be to <a href="real.htm">real</a>ize the concept is meant to <a href="protect.htm">protect</a> the <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom of future <a href="user.htm">user</a>s by disallowing the <small>(possible)</small> desire of <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="user.htm">user</a>s to end that <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom.<br/>
<br/>
Remember, FaiF is about <a href="lib.htm">lib</a>eration, not about "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> as in Beer" <small>(which is a phrase some <a href="use.htm">use</a> to describe "Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e" = Open but not locked)</small>. A FaiF license <small>(the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> is just one example such a license)</small> does not guarantee there won't be a <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>tary charge for the software. A license is considerd FaiF if it meets these criteria:<br/>
<br/>
"<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> software is a matter of the <a href="user.htm">user</a>s' <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom, for the <a href="user.htm">user</a>s of the software:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> The <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom to run the program, for any purpose <small>(<a href="free.htm">free</a>dom 0)</small>.<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> The <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom to study how the program <a href="work.htm">work</a>s, and adapt it to your needs <small>(<a href="free.htm">free</a>dom 1)</small>. Access to the <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e code is a pr<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>dition for this.<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> The <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor <small>(<a href="free.htm">free</a>dom 2)</small>.<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> The <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits <small>(<a href="free.htm">free</a>dom 3)</small>. Access to the <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e code is a pr<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>dition for this.<br/>
" -- <a class="ext" href="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html">www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
The analogy of the gift you give is inaccurate. FaiF software never requires anyone to give it <a href="back.htm">back</a> <small>(to stop using it)</small>. If you <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>d on the <a href="work.htm">work</a> the Community has created, you must not lock others out.<br/>
<br/>
A better analogy would be:<br/>
Here is a FaiF gifting organism.<br/>
But it comes with a license which Locks Open the genetics of future generations.<br/>
The offspring of this organism may <small>(most likely)</small> have genetic <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erences from the pa<a href="rent.htm">rent</a><small>(s)</small> <small>(some organism re<a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e in such a way that this doesn't apply)</small>.<br/>
You may <a href="use.htm">use</a> and share this organism in any way except you may not Lock Closed its genetics <small>(the way Monsanto does for instance)</small>.<br/>
You may even sell the offspring. The only restriction is that you are not allowed to disallow future sharing.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
<span class="quot">> So, "<a href="free.htm">free</a> as in beer" is like public domain: "here ya go, do what you want to with it". Is this correct?</span><br/>
<br/>
patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Public Domain is software in which the copyright has actually been abandoned. The author enforces _no_ restrictions on its <a href="use.htm">use</a> because he in fact relinquished his rights to such power. For all other software the author typically retains copyright <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
"Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e" software <small>(such as a BSD or <a href="art.htm">Art</a>istic or Apache license)</small> often has some <small>(usually very light)</small> restrictions such as "You must keep these comments at the top of the <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e <a href="file.htm">file</a>s", or "You must mention our name on the help screen of your <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t" or some such. The author retains copyright in order to enforce these restrictions.<br/>
<br/>
Both of these are <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>itionally considered "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> as in Beer".<br/>
<br/>
I describe them as Open but not locked.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
<span class="quot">> So, "<a href="free.htm">free</a> as in beer" is like public domain: "here ya go, do what you want to with it". Is this correct?</span><br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> So, with public domain you get full immediate <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom since you can do whatever you want with the code <small>(though this allows you to not <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>agate these rights to others)</small> whereas with open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e you are forced to have a more lasting <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom by having some of your <a href="free.htm">free</a>doms taken away as a <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ifier of the code. Does this sound accurate?</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Please slow down and notice the <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence between Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e and <a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software. Sorry if I've confused you with talk of Public Domain.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e is "Open and Unlocked" - meaning you can lock it <small>(open or closed)</small> in the future. Public Domain is a form of Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e <small>(in fact _no_ restrictions)</small>. BSD, Apache etc. licenses are Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e, but may have trivial redistribution requirements unrelated to future <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software is "Open and Locked" - meaning all future <small>(released)</small> versions are also locked open. <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a>ed software is a form of <a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
To <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ify and redistribute your <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>ement <small>(with changes in '|')</small>:<br/>
<br/>
"So, with |Open <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e| you get full immediate <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom since you can do whatever you want with the code <small>(though this allows you to not <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>agate these rights to others)</small> whereas with |<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software| you are forced to have a more lasting <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom by having some of your <a href="free.htm">free</a>doms taken away as a <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ifier of the code. Does this sound accurate?"<br/>
<br/>
co<a href="work.htm">work</a>er:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
Wow - that's not what I understood open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e to be. That's why <a href="stallman.htm">Stallman</a> gets so ticked off when people confuse the two. So when we say something is "open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e" we usually should <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly be saying "<a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a>ed" or FaiF or something like that? What would the <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence be between open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e and public domain then?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
patware:----------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
I'm glad we've had this discussion. I've been accidentally misleading you in 2 respects:<br/>
<br/>
My understanding of the term "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software" was that it imposes the constraints of a license such as the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a>. But after carefully reading <a class="ext" href="http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html">www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html</a> I see the term I should have been using is "Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a>" since <a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software means: "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> software is software that comes with permission for anyone to <a href="use.htm">use</a>, copy, and distribute, either verbatim or with <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ifications, either gratis or for a fee." <br/>
<br/>
Whereas Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a>ed means: "Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a>ed software is <a href="free.htm">free</a> software whose distribution terms do not let redistributors add any additional restrictions when they redistribute or <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ify the software. This means that every copy of the software, even if it has been <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ified, must be <a href="free.htm">free</a> software."<br/>
<br/>
So, while the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> ensures "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software" rights, it is the Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a> nature of the license that requires future <small>(released)</small> versions also be "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software".<br/>
<br/>
Strangely I never hear <a href="rms.htm">RMS</a> mention Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a>, it's alway "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software" he talks about.<br/>
<br/>
Maybe that means he is less adamant about enforcing the <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> than he is about ensuring extra license restrictions are not enforced: "The term ``open <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e'' software is <a href="use.htm">use</a>d by some people to mean more or less the same thing as <a href="free.htm">free</a> software. However, their criteria are somewhat lax; they accept some license restrictions that we consider too restrictive."<br/>
<br/>
To me this is very confusing. The <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> is certainly the flagship license of the <a href="free.htm">Free</a> Software Foundation. The reason <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> threat is so <a href="real.htm">real</a> is because of the 'viral' Copy<a href="left.htm">left</a> requirement that causes all <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>ders to help the community.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
I also got Public Domain slightly wrong since some PD software may not include <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e.<br/>
<a href="ide.htm">Ide</a>a: <a href="real.htm">Real</a>ity TV show where the <a href="part.htm">part</a>icipants accomplish valuable goals. Designs are required to be <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a>ed.<br/>
Develop hybrid vehicle.<br/>
Develop sustainable household.<br/>
Develop better dishwasher, clotheswasher, food preparation <small>(ala roboChef )</small><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Media: <a class="ext" href="http://www.torrentocracy.com">www.torrentocracy.com</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a href="art.htm">Art</a>ificial scarcity:<br/>
Diamonds:<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond_pr.html">www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond_pr.html</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.gemesis.com">www.gemesis.com</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.apollodiamond.com">www.apollodiamond.com</a><br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.buildfreedom.com/">www.buildfreedom.com/</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/#howboot">www.nu2.nu/bootcd/#howboot</a><br/>
overheard: They've got to <a href="real.htm">real</a>ize that we _are_ better. We're better, we're badder, so watch out!<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>.. finally have a justification to drill in Alaska.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>.. the <small>(native American)</small> Indians are so wealthy. We gave them an acre of <a href="land.htm">land</a> each, but they just <a href="part.htm">part</a>y all the time. They don't deserve it.<br/>
overheard:<br/>
A: "... some <a href="use.htm">use</a> it for bad things, but it is just a tool. I could kill someone with a hammer, but they're not going to outlaw hammers."<br/>
<br/>
B: "On airplanes they would."<br/>
<br/>
The following items were requested on 3/16/2004 3:37:52 PM:<br/>
<br/>
Item # Description............................. Quantity <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>e<br/>
<br/>
6244 Dewberry Plants 5 $6.95<br/>
7036 Sedum, Creeping Red 24 $7.65<br/>
6539 Raspberry, Canby 3 $5.95<br/>
6653 A<a href="pric.htm">pric</a>ot, Manchurian 2 $3.96<br/>
6017 Strawberry Plant Offer 100 $13.50<br/>
5728 Festuca 12 $12.95<br/>
6814 Phlox, Creeping 12 $3.76<br/>
6700 Crownvetch 5 $2.65<br/>
5103 Walk-On-Me Plant 6 $3.00<br/>
6213 Blazing Stars 50 $3.00<br/>
6223 Cherry, Dwf. Flowering 12 $5.92<br/>
6589 Paw Paw Tree 2 $5.75<br/>
1540 SWEET LEAF PLANT 1 $4.95<br/>
1038 LEMON/ORANGE COLLECTION 1 $6.95<br/>
1289 Banana Plant 1 $3.95<br/>
6214 Nut Tree, Pecan 6 $23.00<br/>
6216 Nut Tree, Chestnut 2 $4.96<br/>
6101 Almond Tree 2 $17.50<br/>
6129 Apple, Dwf. Mcintosh 1 $8.88<br/>
6127 Apple, Dwf. Lodi 1 $8.87<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a> Gifts as Earned<br/>
<a href="free.htm">Free</a><br/>
<br/>
Sales Tax $0.00<br/>
<a href="pack.htm">Pack</a>ing $7.95<br/>
Total Charge $162.05<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
bought: Undocumented Windows 2000 Secrets: A Programmer's Cookbook by Sven Schreiber, Sven B. <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
buster2003 debugger<br/>
cmp.phys.msu.su/ntclub/index.htm<br/>
<br/>
Inside Microsoft Windows 2000, Third <a href="edit.htm">Edit</a>ion<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/csrd/">www.cnr.berkeley.edu/csrd/</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.landofhypocricy.com">www.landofhypocricy.com</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.dowethics.com/r/environment/freedom.html">www.dowethics.com/r/environment/freedom.html</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.bhopal.net/index.php">www.bhopal.net/index.php</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.mad-dow-disease.com/">www.mad-dow-disease.com/</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=26789">www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=&usrsess=1&id=26789</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://subsol.c3.hu/subsol_2/otherworlds.html">subsol.c3.hu/subsol_2/otherworlds.html</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.sristi.org/honeybee.html">www.sristi.org/honeybee.html</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://strangecompany.org/matrix/">strangecompany.org/matrix/</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://ocsinventory.sourceforge.net/">ocsinventory.sourceforge.net/</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://www.krisis.org/">www.krisis.org/</a><br/>